linuxaudio.org

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 08:45:38AM +0000, Fons Adriaensen wrote:

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> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 02:03:01AM +0300, Moshe Werner wrote:

>

> > Yet there is one endless discussion between friends and colleges of mine

> > that I usually do not participate in due to the lack of knowledge.

> > The topic is algorithms of software (DAW) mixers. Some people say that they

> > can hear a sound difference between several kinds of software mixers (e.g.

> > Cubase, Protools etc.).

> > I must say that I never made any serious A\B testing but I didn't notice

> > that there is any difference. Although I do work with Pro-tools and Cubase

> > (in other studios), most of the time I'm actually using Ardour (and I'm

> > loving it).

>

> I assume you refer to the basic _mixing_ algorithm, i.e. summing signals,

> and not to e.g. effect plugins. For the latter there is usually a zillion

> ways to do things, and of course they will sound different. As to the

> former, the basic mixing, this is just a lot of nonsense.

>

> Sad facts are that:

>

> - The pro audio world is today infested with the same type of pseudo-

> science that hit the hifi market 25 or more years ago and that makes

> some people pay 00 for a piece of cable and two connectors, or makes

> them spend money on machines to replace old and tired electrons by fresh

> young ones which sound better.

> - The same wave of nonsense now hits also the software world.

>

> The reasons are simple: basic problems have been solved, to create a

> 'competitive edge' you have to add snake oil.

There's another reason, and, as someone who used to be in the business of selling snake oil professionally, I can speak to that a bit.
Look at who is buying. "Pro" audio now is so affordable that people who are decidedly NOT pro's are buying it. They don't have formal audio engineering training or even in some cases a remote familiarity with the basic science or even the scientific method. They don't understand what they are buying, or what they are talking about when they brag or argue about what they bought or why. Advertisers can (and do) get away with making up all kinds of wild lies, and if they don't, in some cases the buyers will do it for them.
>

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>

> > My questions would be:

>

> > 1. Is it only me that can't here a difference between different DAWs mixing

> > algorithms?

>

> Unless some of those algorithms are completely wrong (which would require

> quite a high level if ignorance from the designer), nobody will hear any

> difference. Those that claim they can should prove it in a blind test.

> I know of no such test that ever demonstrated this.

>

> > 2. To the developers out there, what is your opinion? Is there a

> > better/worse algorithm, or is the whole thing another "pay 600$ for this

> > software - it has great algorithms!!!" hype?

>

> There isn't much 'algorithm' to speak of, it's just adding. And single

> precision floating point provides all the precision you need. There *are*

> some issues if you ar mixing thousands of signals - then some ways of doing

> it are better than others. But this doesn't occur in normal audio engineering

> practice.

>

> > 3. If there is a difference what's the explanation?

>

> See previous point. Explaining this would lead us very far.

>

> > 4. Analog emulation plugins. How does one "emulate" analog waveforms in a

> > digital world? That sounds like a paradox to me.

>

> One doesn't emulate 'analog waveforms'. What's done is to reproduce

> digitally the defects of some analog equipment (particular types of

> distortion in a compressor for example), or the 'look and feel' of

> them. There also recently a wave of 'exact digital copies' of e.g.

> Neve equalisers. There's no reason why any of these should be better

> than one that is not an 'exact digital copy'.

>

> HTH,

>

> --

> FA

>

>

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